aaus-list @ ukrainianstudies.org -- RE: [aaus-list] Famine article


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I will leave the question of Polish villages etc. to the professional historians, but on the issue of intent DFD raises an important issue.
There was a perception that Ukrainians were opposed to collectivization "as a people" (because of individual-farmer traditions, lack of Russian-type "mir" traditions, etc.). Assuming arguendo that that was the motive for the Holodomor, was there a specific intent to destroy Ukrainians "as such"? On the one hand, you were targeting them for a "reason" -- their opposition to collectivization -- but on the other, you were still targeting Ukrainians.
By way of analogy, although some Nazi ideologues advocated destroying the Jews because they were considered to be racially inferior, many of the perpetrators of the Holocaust targeted Jews because they were perceived to be economic exploiters. Was the latter a case of targeting the Jews "as such," or could one argue that it was motivated not by ethnic/racial hatred but by economic considerations? In the latter case, was it therefore not genocide?
I doubt that anyone would argue that. So why argue this in the case of the Ukrainians?
Andrii
-----Original Message-----
From: aaus-list-bounces@ukrainianstudies.org [mailto:aaus-list-bounces@ukrainianstudies.org] On Behalf Of Daria Fedewytsch-Dickson
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 11:26 PM
To: Roman Serbyn; Max Pyziur; aaus-list@ukrainianstudies.org
Cc: ukrainians@mailman.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: [aaus-list] Famine article


 
First, are the archives of those areas open for study?
Second, in the case of the Jews (and possibly Armenians too) the killing regimes were opently against a those specific ethnic goups. In the case of the famine, once again the question of intent remains. Punishment for opposing collectivization or ethnicity? Ukrainski Zhurnal (Prague) in its last issue was dedicated to the Holod. Had one survivor/witness story. Man from Khmelnytska oblast. Name of Josef Duma. Born 1919. Here's an ethnic twist. He says his village was totally Polish (not even one Ukrainian in it - those were Poles who remained in the Pravoberezhna Ukraina after Poland's partitions of the late 1770+ whereby most of the the Pravoberezzhia was joined to Russia.
 These Poles remained Roman Catholic and Polish in identity. So were others from the 5-6 villages he mentions nearby. Some were mixed Polish, Jewish,Ukrainian but his village was totally Polish.
 His parents did not agree to enter a kolhosp. They starved. As well as almost all his relatives. Horrible description esp. of the long starvation of the children and the merciless searches of the Communist brigades. Immediately after the famine, most of the men who had survived from his and surrounding villages and the clergy (Roman Catholic and Orthodox priests as well as Rabbis) were deported to Siberia and never heard of again. 

So here we have a Polish village as part of the Genocide

DFD 

-----Original Message-----
From: aaus-list-bounces@ukrainianstudies.org [mailto:aaus-list-bounces@ukrainianstudies.org] On Behalf Of Roman Serbyn
Sent: Sunday, 3 February 2008 11:25 AM
To: Max Pyziur; aaus-list@ukrainianstudies.org
Cc: ukrainians@mailman.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: [aaus-list] Famine article

As usually, John-Paul's article on the numbers of victims of the Holodomor is interesting; his argumentation is clear and engaging. I certainly agree that the Holodomor should not be manipulated and instrumentalized.  At the same time, since I have no firm opinion as to the figure that should be accepted for the victims, have not been convinced by the literature on the subject, and see that even the experts in the field are still changing their minds, this leaves me with the conviction that it is too early to agree on a final number. I am only baffled by one aspect of the question, on which Jean-Paul seems to be on common ground with Yushchenko. When we speak of other genocidal exterminations (Jews, Armenians etc.) we usually include all the victims of the same murdering regime, operation on the whole territory under its control. Why are the victims from among the 8 million Ukrainians living in the Kuban' and other regions of the RSFSR left out of the calculation?

Roman Serbyn


Le 02/02/08 13:26, « Max Pyziur » <pyz@brama.com> a écrit :

> 
> 
> Feb 2 08 - How Many Perished in the Famine and Why Does It Matter? By 
> John-Paul Himka 
> http://www.brama.com/news/press/2008/02/080202himka_famine.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fyi,
> 
> Max Pyziur
> pyz@brama.com
> _______________________________________________
> aaus-list mailing list
> aaus-list@ukrainianstudies.org
> http://www.brama.com/mailman/listinfo/aaus-list


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